Bet-the-Company SaaS Leadership with Michael George, CEO of Syncro

Dan Balcauski interviews Michael George, CEO of Syncro. Michael shares insights from over 25 years of experience leading technology companies like Continuum and Invicti Security to substantial growth. Michael describes pivotal moments, including his early business ventures and experiences with mentorship, like working with inventor Dean Kamen. He emphasizes the importance of focus and the risks associated with diverging from core objectives. Michael also discusses strategies for effectively navigating private equity partnerships, highlighting the difference between value creation and extraction. Bringing attention to leadership and company culture, he discusses successful initiatives like the Continuum Veterans Foundation. The discussion offers invaluable lessons in sustaining focus and innovation in the competitive SaaS landscape.

00:27 Meet Michael George: A Seasoned Technology Leader
02:32 Michael's Journey: From Video Game Arcades to Tech Leadership
06:56 The Importance of Focus in Leadership
17:03 Transformational Moments at Continuum
24:23 Private Equity vs. Venture Capital in SaaS
34:31 Final Thoughts and Advice for SaaS CEOs

Guest Links
Syncro website
Michael George on LinkedIn

Transcript

dan balcauski: 0:20

Welcome to SaaS Scaling Secrets, where we dive into the trenches with leaders of the best scale up B2B SaaS companies. I'm your host, Dan Balcauski, founder of Product Tranquility. Today, I have the privilege of interviewing Michael George. Michael is a seasoned technology leader with over 25 years of experience as the CEO of multiple category leading companies. He's the CEO of Syncro, a B2B SaaS company offering an innovative all in one platform for managed service providers. Before Syncro, Michael led Invicti Security and Continuum, where he drove over 500 percent revenue growth during his tenure. Let's dive in. Welcome, Michael, to SaaS Scaling Secrets.

michael george: 0:50

Dan, thank you very much. Really a privilege to be here with you.

dan balcauski: 0:54

Well, I'm super excited for our conversation today. I think you have a very unique background and you are one of the few folks I've ever seen who has successfully led and scaled multiple B to B SaaS companies as a CEO. How did you end up in this position where you are leading multiple companies? I imagine a lot of folks do it once and they're happy to just kind of sail off. What keeps bringing you back again and again?

michael george: 1:23

Well, look, there's lots of different kinds of CEOs and leaders in the world. I am one that lives in a world of discontent, Dan, so I'm constantly Aspiring to do it better or do it right the next time from what I learned the last time in so many ways. And frankly, I just love what I do. And I think it's a real privilege to be, in this particular time at this particular place and have a, a penchant for technology in particular I just think it's all good fortune. And I. I'd hate to see it languish by by going out and trying to, have a better golf game for myself or anything else. So it's it's what I do.

dan balcauski: 2:11

started sipping the martinis on the beach. You realize it's not at all. It's cracked up to be, let me get back in the mess. Uh, Awesome. We all have those moments in our lives that are transformational. I sometimes refer to them as a superhero transformation moment. Where it's the, I'm one day, I'm Peter Parker of our normal high school kid that I get bit by a radioactive spider, go to sleep, wake up, and everything's different. What was that moment for you and your journey?

michael george: 2:35

Wow. There's been so many things that have happened that that have really ended up Unlocking a whole nother set of opportunities for me. It's hard to really pick or define any one in particular. I will say that the start of my career if I were to think back at, that, one, if you will, pivotal moment was, I had the good fortune of meeting very early on. In fact, I was in college and I was putting myself through school by opening up small video game arcades. This is back in the, early eighties. And I this is a Pac Man and Defender and all the different kinds of, video games that, that had emerged and I I started, really literally by buying a few machines and putting them in pizza parlors and places in and around town where I was going to school and I ended up owning seven video game arcades in Southern New Hampshire and I owned a route on the Cape. So I really was very fortunate to catch a tiger by the tail. I was trying to sell the business. At the height of it, and I had the good fortune of meeting then unknown Dean Kamen. Dean had just sold his company, Auto Syringe, to Travonol Labs, later to become Baxter Travonol. He's most known for being the inventor of the Segway the two wheel Segway. And so, a dean met me and I spent quite a bit of time with him and he said, I'm not going to buy your company but I want you to quit college and come to work for me. In my invention center, it was called DECA, D E K A, is I think the banner he still operates under. And I did ultimately sell my business. I did not quit college as he did. But I graduated a little bit early from Suffolk University and joined him in a remarkable five year journey in the R& D center that again, launched a whole number of things. Dean was He's an extraordinarily brilliant human being that really made a lot of contributions to medical technology. He's the inventor of the Artificial infusion pump that's used to deliver diabetic insulin for diabetic children and insulin dependent diabetics. And much earlier he wasn't, he was 17 years old when that technology was patent under his mother's name. Cause you can't even have a patent until you're 18. And so that was really he, it opened me into uh, Extraordinary world that I never really understood, before. And so that was kind of a unlock moment in and of itself. But I would say throughout my journey, it's been it's been a series of things that I think my enthusiasm for technology and opportunities is perhaps and maybe combined in some way with. Commercial success is best defined by a quote Winston Churchill once said, which was success is often stumbling from one failure to the next without the loss of enthusiasm. And I was that I was that enthusiastic entrepreneur, let's say.

dan balcauski: 5:50

Well, it seems that the passive time has not deadened your enthusiasm one bit. There's so many threads in there. Actually has a lot of similarities to a young Warren Buffett. I don't know if anyone's ever relayed that anecdote to you, but one of Warren Buffett's very first businesses, him and a young friend when they think they were like 10 years old, started Fixing up pinball machines and then would rent them back to like barbershops, etc. They had a whole booming business that was paying for uh, Buffett's uh, you know, other entrepreneurial ventures. So, we've got a true blue entrepreneur on their heads and then Dean Kamen, what a fascinating career he's had. And it's in some ways unfortunate how popular the segue was because a lot of times all he's thought about, he's made pretty Credible contributions over time. I could spend all the time in that history. that's absolutely fascinating. As I mentioned in the intro, you have been a CEO of several B2B SaaS companies, just in the last we'll shorten it and just look at the last, say, a decade, 15 years, because your leadership, it goes even farther back than that across Continuum, Invicti, and now Syncro. What do you think is the most important thing that CEOs need to get correct?

michael george: 7:03

If there were just one thing, and I wish I could be thought of as a Warren Buffett in any more in any more context than you've already provided, I did not know that story, so thank you for sharing that. And of course, Pinball is predated. Video games as Warren predates me as old as I am. But he and Bill Gates, I think had shared a, there's a common story about them being asked by Bill Gates's mother, what they, separately, what they attributed their success to. And both of them answered separately, but for very similar reasons, they said one word, focus. And I work hard myself. We all work hard ourselves at trying to figure out what not to do, what to say no to, and the nature of a leader, the nature of an entrepreneur is one of optimism and opportunity, and it's very alluring, very salacious, all the other things that can be done in and around. Your primary focus or your primary purpose that often just distracts people to do things that hedge a little bit their bet. And frankly, there is an uncommon appetite for failure when people decide. That they are going to do just one thing because it's easier to hedge that bet, Dan, by, okay, I'm going to do that thing, but I'm also going to do this. Or we're going to, we're going to, we're going to add this element to it, right though, and they're constantly hedging. But if you, if there was one common theme throughout my career that I would the success I've been fortunate to achieve, it would be singular focus and appetite to take that risk, to know that if you fail you will, you will fail. Absolutely fail. It's funny. I had the privilege of being a student of Jim Collins, the famous

dan balcauski: 9:17

Good good to great,

michael george: 9:18

good to great, and many other fabulous books. I was a student of his, he was a professor before, and he had just started up his his research center in Boulder, Colorado at the time, and he was, he's a rock climber. I'm a high altitude mountaineer person. There's a big difference between the two. One you're using, ropes and your fingertips to pull yourself straight up. And the other in high altitude mountaineering, you're depending on a different set of skills anyway Jim and I got to know one another at a personal level. When I, from the time I first met him, and of course I've seen him many times since he's been on a fabulous tour of speeches and everything else. And I remember talking to him about his affinity for rock climbing. And he, about his interest in my affinity for mountaineering, which he thinks I'm crazy. And. I think he's crazy and we both agreed that we love it because it's something that requires a level of focus that if you lose that focus, you are likely to have the result of a fall that will result in death. And when you have that much at stake, it just requires this absolutely uncommon level of focus on one simple thing, one singular thing. It's not even a simple thing, but one singular thing. So again I, relating back to that particular thing, between some of these extraordinarily successful people, Gates and Buffett and Jim Collins's. analysis and his own love for rock climbing and my affinity for high altitude mountaineering. Again, these are things that just require an unwavering commitment. And a belief, conviction. People talk about, Oh, I'm passionate about this. Well, if you're really passionate, like bet your life on it. Like, are you willing to bet your company? There have been many times in my career where, funding is thin, we're losing customers. The pressures on all of these things, but we will make a bet the company strategy, an absolute, a continuum. We bet the company on cyber security. Now this is back in 2016 in the small to medium business market that people thought we were foolish, like that's not a small business problem. But when I tell you we bet the company, if we were wrong, We would have been bankrupt, absolutely bankrupt. And and so there are times where you just have to have that kind of. Maniacal focus. And when you say you're passionate, are you so passionate and so committed and so determinately believe in what you're doing that you're willing to risk everything to make it happen? And if it's true, then do that and be willing to make those risks. And don't get distracted.

dan balcauski: 12:22

You've opened up a bunch of threads there. I want to pull out all of them, but I don't think we have enough time on. So I totally agree. This lack of focus kills companies. And I think in there, you were talking about it's so easy to hedge because then it sort of, well, if this doesn't work out, then we'll, at least be able to sort of keep the lights on. If neither of these play out is that really the fear? And I guess kind of building on that, are there things that you've had to, Institute, either like in your own psychology or as processes in your company to enforce that. We can look at, jobs or gates or whatever, who talk about this focus, focus, but it just, it's such a disease throughout so many companies. So I'm curious, like how have you been successful in actually driving that through? Like, is it I learned like, I'm going to have to shoot some puppies. There's going to be pet projects that people are going to want to put forward. And I've just got to, I've got to say no. Cause I put the message of the company forward. Like, what is it for you and your mind? Like, how have you been able to maintain that over the years?

michael george: 13:20

Yeah, well, look I have fallen victim at times to things that might slightly deviate, although never really. Opening it up so that we've got dual paths, but I'm sure I have not been perfect in that practice either. I think it is very difficult to do. The one thing that is super important for any organization is. And for any leader, entrepreneur, leader, whatever it might be, is to get alignment with the rest of your leadership team about what is the one thing we're going to do better than everybody else. It's not the one thing we're going to do, but it's the one thing we're Balcauski. Where people get distracted is, Oh, but our competitor's doing this and they're beating us because they have this. Or they beat, right. There's always some tangential element in there that has our competitive ire, going, okay, we're going to do that too. But I, if you really analyze it you understand that in fact, if you just do one thing, and that one thing is really valuable to the customers that you're serving, they are willing to live, right, without those other things or augment what you're doing With other things by partner, you can get there by partnering, for instance, instead of either building or buying and offering it yourself, or, there, there are a lot of different ways to solve those problems. So I think it all begins again with decide on that one thing that we're going to be absolutely better than everybody in the world. Get your organization completely aligned with that. And then everybody, somebody comes with a pet project, as you described, or another idea or whatever else. You just sit there and you listen to it openly, as you should, but then you ask the question, in what way does it serve this mission, this single mission? In what way does it do that? Because if it doesn't, Then don't do it. Like, are you willing to sacrifice being the absolutely best at something that you have declared is of one of the highest value things in that market you're trying to serve? Is that other thing worth distracting from that, taking away from it, diluting it? And, 90 plus percent of the time you're going to decide, no, it doesn't, and that's the question you have to ask of all those other things. And And again, I'm not telling you that it's easy, it's hard, and that's what defines winners from losers, that's what defines successful companies from, the ones that come in, second and third and fourth or whatever else it might be is to do that one thing absolutely remarkably better than anybody else. And so long as you got the fundamentals of that one thing right, which is, it is of high value to the customer you're trying to serve.

dan balcauski: 16:36

Well, I wanted to see if we, that ties into something you mentioned earlier because you were talking about, during Continuum, you scaled, the revenue of 5X as mentioned in my intro. And it sounded like it was around this key sort of bet the company on the cybersecurity for SMB. Can you give a little bit more color to kind of that sort of strategic decision and how you guys sort of. How you got to that point as it pertains to the conversation we've been having?

michael george: 17:03

I would say there were two real breakout moments for us that really unlocked the potential of the company. One is that, the origins of the company were from India. It was founded. In India and was actually a line of business out of a publicly traded company, publicly traded on the Bombay Stock Exchange. And we had a large Indian constituent in our organization. We had a help desk and we had a NOC, a Network Operations Center operation as part of our business. And when I stepped in, it was at the end of 2011. And the economy was just recovering from the financial crisis of 08, slowly recovering, and it was as often described a jobless recovery, as you may recall. And and so there was a backlash about outsourcing US jobs to places like India, a big backlash, and our competitors. Took advantage of that appropriately by, calling us out and describing us as being an Indian based company and you're going to let them outsource your jobs and everything else. And frankly, the unique thing that we did there was we created a labor arbitrage opportunity for small businesses that only large businesses had access to prior, right? That was an enterprise strategy. Not necessarily one that was addressable by the small to medium business market. So what we thought we were doing was really quite extraordinary to tap into that lower labor market. But despite that, we were losing customers at tremendous rates. And. People also didn't understand that our help desk was actually on U. S. soil. At the same time, I'll never forget, I was working out, and over the series of a couple of weeks, Tom Brokaww had been promoting a Hire Our Heroes program to get the U. S. industries to hire back these young men and women who were coming back from two of the longest wars in U. S. history in Iraq and Afghanistan. And they were returning to a jobless economy. And he had this Hire Our Heroes program. And I got really inspired by it, candidly. And I ended up, I decided to call him and it took me about two days. And I finally, I got him on the phone and I

dan balcauski: 19:38

Tom Brokaw.

michael george: 19:39

Yeah. Yeah. He wrote a book called The Greatest Generation. You know, He

dan balcauski: 19:43

I recall.

michael george: 19:44

in this category. And And I told him how inspired I was and, how thoughtful I thought the work he was doing and everything else so much so that I was going to, initiate a program like that in the company. And I wanted him to, went on and on all the things I was going to do about what he was promoting. And I told him I wanted him to support me in that effort. And he said, no. And I said, well, why not? This is. He said, look, you're a for profit in company. You should be doing this anyway. And he talked about all the things and I said, Well, what would it be that would have you want to promote it? He said, well, if it was a 503c, if it was a nonprofit entity, if you were, essentially creating funds, not just to hire your own people, but maybe to help these men and women. Transition into civilian jobs. He came up with a number of things that I really, I thought that was extraordinary so much. So I stepped away from that one meeting with him and I outlined what became known as the Continuum Veterans Foundation. It was. It ended up being some of my most some of the most proudest work that I have done in in my career. And I ended up doing all the things he said I should do if it was something he were willing to promote it because he was right about every bit of it. And so we founded the Veterans Foundation and we specifically earmarked profits that were being generated for work done to our help desk. Cause our help desk was a place that we were hiring the most number of veterans into. And in fact, if you look at a military deployment today, There's only a handful of these people that really learned to shoot guns. Most everybody, and today they're flying drones and doing all kinds of technical things, but even back 10 or 12 years ago they were they were doing reconnaissance, laying cable. I mean, a lot of it was very technology oriented. So when they came back into the U. S., they wanted jobs in the civilian world in IT. So we found a couple of programs and used all the money that we contributed to the foundation to go out and fund organizations that provided that kind of training. Anyway, I thought about reaching back out to Brokaw and say, Hey, I've done exactly what you told me to do. And I want you to support me. But I, we had a different opportunity at the time in the state of Massachusetts. We had a Republican Senator in Scott Brown and a Democratic Senator in John Kerry. He was a very well and outspoken veteran and a supporter of veteran events. And Senator John McCain I reached out to the three of them and all three of them stepped up and supported our foundation and were generous enough to they, we put together a video to launch the foundation. We had a parachute made with. Continuum Veterans Foundation in it. Myself and my executive team, we went up in an airplane. We had skydivers jump out to blow open the parachute. But anyway, McCain and Kerry and Senator Brown, these all people that were very outspoken in support of the Continuum Veterans Foundation, and it turned what was an anti continuum sentiment. About us outsourcing jobs into an incredibly positive. Experience for everybody, where we were actually not outsourcing help desk jobs in particular. Our NOC operation was in India, but our help desk was in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and we were hiring in a disproportionate number of Veterans into it, and we were providing a percentage of our own profits to fund other organizations that were providing training. It was a pivotal moment for the company to turn what was a very negative sentiment. into an extraordinarily positive one. We didn't do it for the sole purpose. It wasn't completely altruistic, we did it for this dual purpose of both, changing the sentiment about us and informing people that our help desk was actually in the U. S., but also doing well by doing good. And anytime a competitor spoke negatively about us. As being an outsourcer, the market backlash against them and said these people are doing really good work. What are you doing?

dan balcauski: 24:16

I thank you for sharing that. And you never know where a conversation with Tom Brokaw is gonna lead down the line. So, what an amazing turn of events. Well, I do wanna go back to, during your time as leader of multiple companies you've worked with multiple different kinds of funding partners, whether it's venture capital or private equity. I'm curious, kind of, how do you see the role of specifically private equity back backing in the B to B software world, because I think, there's a ton of ink spilled in, TechCrunch or whatever about, venture capital funding rounds. And, I think private equity is a real big player. but they've gotten very involved in software. So what have you learned about, Working with private equity that maybe other folks don't kind of understand. So from the outside, looking in.

michael george: 25:06

Well, I'm not sure I know any particular secret or know anything, unique that other people don't necessarily know or understand. I would say that well, I've had the privilege of working with some of the best venture capital firms in the world, candidly. This is, Kleiner Perkins, Matrix, Greylock. The list goes on. And in the private equity world I've had the privilege of working with Summit Partners on a number of occasions, Toma Bravo who's very much an in the news private equity firm, and currently with Mainsale, these are all top tier, world class private equity companies, but I will say that not all of them operate in the same way. At the most fundamental level, a distinction between growth equity and private equity and in the growth equity world in particular, these are companies that are generally market making they're investing in growth and they are, very purposefully Like you said, you can be on the better side or the funding side, where they're actually contributing and funding new initiatives, growth, expansion, international, whatever it might be. But then there's, so there's that side of the private equity world. The other side of it is is value extraction. So some of them are in the value creation side, but other ones are in the value extraction side.

dan balcauski: 26:36

Why does it matter which side of that you're on?

michael george: 26:38

Well, it matters a lot because depending on the cycle of the industry, Dan, sometimes industries are new and emerging and would benefit from greater contributions to innovation and growth and the kinds of things that you're not going to be as profitable But you're in a, you're in a value creation mode. And so these are private equity firms, main sale that I'm involved with today. They are, I mean, we're making major investments in our business because our market requires a level of innovation that has been stagnated by the three major leaders. Although that word is going to be, that is a tenuous one at the moment. But the three largest providers in our ca in our space today are all owned by companies that are in the value extraction mode. So they are really, they're heavily burdened with debt. They were acquired using debt at main sale. They didn't use a penny for of debt. So we're not basically clipping a coupon and paying off a big note. And that's one of the things you need to, people need to look at and understand, like that's a wonderful instrument for growth when it's proportioned right and used right. But many times. You have a company and its sole existence is to increase its EBITDA so that it can basically pay off the debt that was used to fund the acquisition of the business. Those are companies that are in the value extraction level. And so there are companies that are really left To lacking innovation and lacking the kinds of things, particularly in a SaaS business. I mean, one of the things that I love about the SaaS business is, even if you have contracts and all these other things, we make that available to our customers that you don't even have to have a contract with us because we want to earn your business every day. And because you have the ability, you have the right to leave us. If we are not delivering a level of quality product service for you, for the cost, you have, you can leave. And and so, so it, it creates a requirement for us. To deliver super high quality products and high quality of service, or people will walk out the door and you have nothing you have nothing when you do that, and these larger companies they have gone and created economic incentives for people to sign up for three year contracts. So you can't get out of them. And then they kind of just squeeze the nickels till the Buffalo screen, not putting a penny back into the business and into innovation and everything else so that by the time those contracts come up, if the private equity firm hasn't sold that business by then, they're in trouble. And we are in an industry today where, the companies that are in our space, they're in trouble because they have operated under this value extraction dynamic. And I don't think anybody predicted sort of this post COVID fallout, the April, 2012, decline of the stock market and everything else. And these are all companies that thought that they. Would have, been able to exit those companies by then and by now, and they haven't been able to, so

dan balcauski: 30:11

Yeah. Yeah. Rising interest rates and high valuations four or five years ago has has not helped their cause. Best wishes to everyone in that situation. It's not a pleasant place to be either side of that transaction. Well, so, so it sounds like, understand what side of the Private equity market you're playing in, value extraction versus value creation understanding the downsides of debt. Given your experience with PEBAC companies, any other advice that you would give SaaS CEOs who are considering taking in private equity investment?

michael george: 30:40

There's lots of, lots of, lots of advice. It's a complicated world. I happen to love it. I, I love my time in the venture world. The thing I welcome about private equity very differently is, in the venture world where you have two or three or four venture firms that have funded you if everything's going swimmingly, you'll do great. What is that 6%? I mean, for the other 94 percent of us mere mortals, when things don't go well and you have an impedance mismatch between. The firm, the individual from the firm, the cycle of the fund, all that other stuff. It wreaks havoc with your business. And these are things that have nothing to do with your business, right? They have to do with sort of this weird marriage of three or four or five different venture firms that again, have an impedance mismatch. In the private equity world, you're typically dealing with just one. And if it's more than one, you have a senior majority and a minority, and the minority is typically pretty silent. So, it's easier to be the slave to, one master than, being pulled apart by multiple ones. So I love that singular. Focus in the private equity world. Number one, number two, in terms of advice and guidance, I, as I shared this with someone who was entering the private equity world, I said, make no mistake about it. There's only one CEO in this company. And that's you. And you own every decision, good and bad, and own it. Like, do not for even a second, make a single excuse for any of the failings, the slowness, The, turnover, the churn or anything like you own everything top to bottom. And if you don't go to bed at night thinking that way and wake up that way in the morning, you'll be in trouble. I, they, these, the, these are smart people, they don't suffer fools. And and and so, be wise and take a level of ownership. That candidly, in, again, in the venture world, you can parlay your capital with, let's say by befriending or having a particular relationship with one of the venture firms so that person is your defense, on the, in the screen. But when you have one funder, one financial partner Pay attention. And in the venture world, I used to say your venture partner, all partners are equal. It's just some are more equal than others. I, I used to side up, I used to team up with the larger investors, I Kleiner Perkins and Matrix were two, I had a, I ran a company, we had literally 23 institutional investors, but Matrix and Kleiner Perkins were two of the largest ones. Guess where I spent 90 percent of my board time with, right? And I kind of didn't care about everybody else. In the private equity world, again you have a singular partner and you own everything. Good and bad that happens, from

dan balcauski: 33:58

That's a great compare and contrast between the VC, this impedance mismatch versus, having sort of one maybe one eye of Sauron or whatever your appropriate metaphor is sort of, looking at you but also I heard perhaps a irrational, excessive level of ownership required to every decision that the company is yours. And if you go in eyes wide open as a new CEO, like, Making sure that you're committing to what you're committing to going forward. So, look, I could talk to you all day, Michael. This has been fabulous, to be respectful of your and the audience's time, I do want to start wrapping it up. Look we've talked about, covered a lot of ground today. If I had to give you a, I gave you a billboard and you put any advice on there for other B to B SaaS CEOs trying to scale their companies, what would you, what would it say?

michael george: 34:42

Focus. Wow.

dan balcauski: 34:44

Love it. What do you think about all the spectacular people you've had a chance to work with? Is there anyone who just pops to mind that's had a disproportionate effect on the way you think about building companies?

michael george: 34:54

That's so hard. There is a gentleman that remains in that position in my life. He's 81 years old now. He was one of the co founders of Data General which is a company that's long forgotten by many, unfortunately. And this was a company that I founded and funded myself called Interlinks. And I heard him speak at a conference. And I say, over the five years of running that company, I made about 5, 000 mistakes, but I made one really great decision and that was I dogged him down For almost a year to get him to join my board. And his name is Steve Gall, G A L and he's perhaps had one of the most profound impacts on my life in my, in the professional sense of the world, I would say the one person that's had by far the most profound impact. On my life has been my father. I feel really fortunate when people talk about being a CEO, being a successful CEO, I remind them to make no mistake about it. I have two brothers and they are both CEOs as well. I grew up on the right knee and I have my parents in, in, in general, and my father in particular to thank for that. So

dan balcauski: 36:16

Thank you for sharing that both for Touching Story on your father, as well as with Steve. If folks want to learn more about what you're up to or Syncro Where could they do that?

michael george: 36:26

our website is Syncromsp. com and it's it certainly it's a website that's going to be completely transformed before the end of this year, we're relaunching the entire company around some initiatives. For automation. But please feel free to do that or to reach out to me directly on LinkedIn. If somebody feels that I could be particularly helpful to them I'm happy to, I'm happy to help where I can.

dan balcauski: 36:56

Michael, I will put those links in the show notes for our listeners. Everyone, that wraps up this episode of SaaS Scaling Secrets. Thank you to Michael for sharing his journey insights and valuable tips for our listeners. If you found this conversation as enlightening as I did, remember to subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes